I originally posted this episode with Dougald Hine, EP 64, two years ago on this day in 2023.
I’m thinking it might have more relevance and be more helpful today to more folks around here.
Context is king and all that.
A couple of weeks ago I was having dinner celebrating a friends 50th.
I was sat next to my mate Sam who I hadn’t seen for a while.
Sam is a good soul, a CEO of a grown up business with hundreds of staff and a foundation that supports young folk.
He carries a lot of responsibilities for peoples livelihoods.
He’s always pioneered ethical and environmental practice in his business, making big risky investments to do the right thing.
We inevitably got chatting about the collapse of everything.
He seemed to be starting to question the logics of green growth and the effectiveness of climate policies, seeing customers turning away from more expensive ethical choices as things get harder and harder financially.
I totally got his concerns.
We got talking about modernity, failing institutions of world order, the media narratives that keep us confused and divided, the exhaustion of our scaled up teetering systems.
I ruminated (as I seem to do these days) on the stuckness of our ability to let go of the delusional beliefs of eternal progress and growth, and the illusion of our separation from the living world itself.
We got riffing on education, and a system that has barely changed for a century, keeping so many young humans locked into ways of learning that avoid connecting them with their unique gifts and their most alive questions, while failing to prepare them to navigate a deeply uncertain and complex future.
What we were really talking about though was different ways of knowing.
Different ways of knowing the world around us and our place within it.
The abstract information heavy culture that fills our heads with data, facts and perceived certainty through reductionist thinking Vs the ways we can know a complex entangled living world in our guts and heart and bodies, through our living relationships with all that is alive.
Sam mentioned having just read a book - De-Schooling Society by Ivan Illich and it reminded me of
- who references often the influence of Illich on his own thinking and in his book At Work in the Ruins.The focus of this episode I recorded with Dougald while he was touring the book in the UK in 2023.
I sent the episode to Sam.
I wasn’t sure if he’d find it helpful.
It’s a weighty conversation, ‘endings’ is a big theme - not massively encouraging for the relentless drive of commerce.
Sam messaged me a few days later:
“Really enjoyed this Dan, very thought provoking, love the idea of time being spent on and with endings (ministry of laying down etc), also enjoyed his view on lock down etc. Hospicing modernity, is that where we're at ?
Enjoyed the concept of not knowing, strangely comforting. Great job”
Well that was interesting to hear.
So with that I thought maybe I should post the episode again and now two years ago to the day - so here it is.
Maybe as more folks begin to bear witness to this old world imploding, to this civilisational story ending, perhaps we are becoming ready to figure out what work we are being called to do ‘in the ruins’ as Dougald would say.
I would suggest that there is much wisdom to be found in listening to Dougald and he articulates with such honesty, care and humility.
Imagine if we focussed on cultivating these kinds of qualities in our culture in these times of endings - what might emerge ?
I hope you enjoy this if you give it a listen and if you do please let me know how it lands.
I highly recommend reading Dougald’s book - At Work in the Ruins
As I said when I read it in 2023…
“ At Work in the Ruins is a book of wisdom for these times. Times which often feel to me to be full of cleverness that no longer make much sense”
Here’s some more famous folks reviews…
I am continuing with this extended fallow break on new podcast recordings while we plot our next evolution.
I will continue to serve up a few from the archive that feel ripe for these times.
Peace and out
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